Nisarga Raman
All the expressions of truth are not truth but are “about” truth and may be true for those who have known, but not for us who have not come to the knowing.
But the sad part is that we always cling to those expressions and go on repeating as if they are expressions of our knowing.
One can start only from where he is . It means if duality is his experience (which is true) at this moment, he should first accept this fact with conviction.
Then he should explore this duality (with the help of mind which is the only instrument available for any search) in small things being faced in day to day life.
He should try to find out whether this duality is true or not?
He should not start with finding the so called non-dual nature which is unknown to him.
Let not the belief or faith come into the way because they are hindrances in revelation of Truth which will be a happening.
Repetition of abstract quotations about truth is just a mental entertainment.
My friend’s Reply---
Without belief and faith, nothing is achievable-in either science or meta science. Faith is the ingredient of which each person is made of.
He cannot deny his own raw material.
The scientist has faith in his thought and idea which is yet unproved.
That's what makes him continue and prove it right in the long run!(or else he will not pursue it at all).
He somehow knows he is right. Who tells him that?
But anyway, here we are comparing apples and oranges. We cannot compare the subjective science with an objective science. We can't even compare two different objective sciences like health and hygiene and physics!
After seeing the everyday dualities, the mind asks questions- how can this ever changing finite things be real? Yesterday my house was, today it is not! Tsunami took it. I used to think my house is real! What happened?
That's what makes a man hunt for something within which is real as real can be.
Mental entertainment has to be exhausted before the truth seeps in deeply.
Don't we learn the tables by heart in class 2? We do not know the arithmetic behind it then. Later we understand what is meant by 2x8=16 !Same way, discussions on the nature of reality gradually weans away this mind into a higher state of introspection- because we have seen here it has nothing more to gain.
Same world, same each day, action reaction, pain pleasure. What's new?
Nothing.
Then why not discuss something which may lead us higher? Quite logical. Being in duality one can never experience non duality.
But since we already are in duality, there is no other means than contemplating, but ultimately has to be a divine grace to lift out.
No logic can be worked out, since we are dealing in a subject which is out of the purview of logic.
Why do we assume science and logic are right and others are wrong?
Aren't we limiting our own realization by doing this?
Science is also a by-product of this same mind thought which produces a piece of Mozart music. Just a different dimension.
Stuff is same- made of ignorance and relativity.
Why do we assume the reality has to confirm to our human sense of logic?
Who gave this us this idea?
We ourselves! Isn't this human conceit?
We could be wrong. Can a thief ever catch his own crime? Hari Om
Nisarga Raman
My friend’s statement
“’Without belief and faith, nothing is achievable-in either science or meta science. Faith is the ingredient of which each person is made of.”’
Reply---I agree that up to certain stage belief and faith is required but it must comes to end after confidence comes into picture, otherwise I think no progress can be made.
There are two types of belief . Working and problematic.
One should have beliefs but knowing fully well that these are beliefs only, this I say a working beliefs. Otherwise if beliefs are treated as truth then they are problematic ones.
This applies to both science and spirituality as both are nothing but discovery.
My friend’s statement
“---how can this ever changing finite things be real?”
Reply----Your definition of real is which is not subject to changes. From the point of view of changeability yes I agree. But this change is observable as long as body exists.
My friend’s statement
"""Discussions on the nature of reality gradually weans away this mind into a higher state of introspection""'---
Reply--- I fully agree with you that the "grip/clutch of thoughts on us"(EGO) of which logic is a content goes on decreasing with the increase in awareness towards non-duality. Everything starts appearing to be happening on its own and feeling of doership also goes on weakening.
My friend’s statement
“Same world, same each day, action reaction, pain pleasure. What's new? Nothing.”
Reply--- But where is the world. In the human mind only. When you are asleep where is the world. As soon as the mind starts functioning the world appears for that person.
What is same each day . Nothing. Everything is changing.
So far as pain and pleasure are concerned they can be very easily understood by anlysing various factors with the help of mind itself. This is not a problem at all. It only appears because we have not enquired.
My friend’s statement
"Ultimately has to be a divine grace to lift out"
Reply---Very true. It simply indicates that nothing is in our hand. Everything happens. It does never mean that somebody (divine) is sitting above existing outside of us and when time comes that will lift us.
Lifting happens when somehow total openness happens in the person concerned as it happened in the case of Ramakrishna after he met his Guru Totapuri. Before that he was a complete believer and that belief was creating the problem in happening of the "inexpressible" generally known as non-dual state.
My friend’s statement
""Being in duality one can never experience non duality"---
Reply--- The non-duality can never be experienced as that is not "something" which can be made an object of experience.
Non-dual simply indicates that the feeling/knowledge of separation(duality) is illusion/false when a person somehow finds himself established in that non-dual state.
My friend’s statement
""No logic can be worked out,since we are dealing in a subject which is out of the purview of logic. ""-----
Reply----Do you have any other instrument other than the mind?
The basic operating system of mind is logic.
So as long as mind exists logic has to be there in a sane person, albeit its grip(attachment) on our actions goes on decreasing as we progress in the field of spirituality i.e. towards knowing the fact that knowledge of separation(duality) is false.
It (logic) comes to not when the understanding down upon the person that "EVERYTHING IS HAPPENING ON ITS OWN. NOTHING IS IN OUR CONTROL."
But before this happening a minimum amount of logic was remaining there, as mind existed up to that point after which understanding downed upon.
Yes for this understanding requirement of logic is no more or you can say it becomes redundant as the person does not exist in the way as he had thought about himself, before the understanding happened.
My friend’s statement
"'Why do we assume science and logic are right and 'others are wrong?"'----
Reply--As we are in the state of duality in which everything is decided by the involvement of sense organs and mind where is the question of assumption?
The science and logic are facts. Nobody can deny their existence. How can we?
Is it possible to interact without the help of mind?
Is it not a fact that this facility of interaction has been invented by scientists or you can say through their body-mind mechanism such things welled up from unknown?
By saying science is right, does not necessarily mean others are wrong. It simply means whatever others are saying has not become our truth.
That was their truth who has said so.
This principle applies in day-to-day life also in relation to various sensual experiences, forget about the so called higher experiences.
My friend’s statement
"Aren't we limiting our own realization by doing this?"
Reply--- So long as the understanding as I referred earlier has not happened with us we have no option but to talk/say/discuss/interact in a way which reflects as limiting ourselves.
Even after happening of understanding the talks of the enlightened person appears to be same from the angle of others, as there is no way out if talk is to continue with the persons who have not "known".
My friend’s statement
"Stuff is same- made of ignorance and relativity"
Reply-----Ignorance simply means that the person is not aware of the fact that "NOBODY CAN DO ANYTHING WHATSOEVER AS IDEA OF DOERSHIP IS FALSE. EVERYTHING IS HAPPENING ON ITS OWN".
There is nothing wrong with the person as awareness has not welled up. He cannot be held responsible for his ignorance so long as he is not made to understand.
Yes he can be poked in order to make him awakened about the reality (IDEA OF DOERSHIP IS FALSE) by an awakened person only.
If somebody who himself is not awakened yet and tries to do so, it will have no effect. You must have read the famous story ""The Sage and the Saweet". It is like that only.
By quoting/believing others by an ignorant person has no meaning at all.
It may be a good mental entertainment. That is all.
My friend’s statement
"We could be wrong."-
Reply--- Yes we are wrong, but from the angle of that person who has understood the reality. Not from our angle as we are ignorant only.
My Friend's Reply
Yes, I do understand and agree by what you say.
It's all from which point of view we are looking at the picture.
This idea of "I" gets thinned and the idea of Divine doer ship increases in direct proportion to that.
But that should not be construed as saying that whatever we do, kill murder or loot, is a divine act!
This argument has been used by several ignorant intellectuals, not realizing that that Karmic results depend upon the individuals inner consciousness of doership and not on a general theory under which he can take false shelter.
For example a person who hires another to kill cannot say that he did not kill, it was just his idea! He would have to undergo the entire consequence of that act
Nisarga Raman
My friend’s statement
""But that should not be construed as saying that whatever we do, kill murder or loot, is a divine act! This argument has been used by several ignorant intellectuals, not realizing that that Karmic results depend upon the individuals inner consciousness of doership and not on a general theory under which he can take false shelter.""
Reply- But from the angle of the enlightened one
"nothing has ever happened, nothing is happening and nothing will ever happen" or "whatever has happened, happened for good', 'whatever is happening, is happening for good' and 'whatever will happen will happen for good".
That is what has been said in Gita by Krishna during Mahabharata.
The above is logically true also because
"NOBODY CAN DO ANYTHING WHATSOEVER, AS THE IDEA OF DOERSHIP ITSELF IS FALSE/ILLUSION.
EVERYTHING IS HAPPENING ON ITS OWN."
As nobody exists question of killer and killed does not arise.
My friend’s statement
"Karma and its fruits"-
Reply-- The general understanding in common parlance of this theory is meant for masses (ignorants). This understanding was propounded just to maintain the order in the society as this was linked to supernatural /superpower God (as giver of fruit) outside us which in reality not true as per enlightened one's understanding.
But if somebody kills taking shelter of the above statement, then the action of killing itself is the proof that he is suffering/unhappy otherwise how he can kill.
He is not going to reap the fruit in future.
The fruit is already there inside.
The act of killing is just reflection of his inner state.
There is no time gap between the action and its related reaction. There is always a continuity.
In fact result (effect) is already present before the so called action (basically reaction) happens whether externally or internally is immaterial.
The action (reaction) is just a reflection of inner state which is already there. ""Hence effect precedes the cause"".
That is why it is said that "you can give only what you have or you cannot give what you don't have."
Example- If somebody's action creates unhappiness then understand that that person is already unhappy and he is just making/sharing his unhappiness with others.
If a saint goes to hell, the hell will be converted into heaven and reverse is true in case of opposite personality.
No comments:
Post a Comment